2017 Results

After a record 55 ballots cast – more than doubling the 25 ballots cast in 2016 – The Gallery of Renown welcomes Craig Biggio and Ivan Rodriguez to Bob’s Corner. In the first year after Bob’s passing, Dan Marks brought the vote to the articles section of Bill James Online. The increased exposure led to the dramatic increase in ballots, and (I hope) some cross-over between the separate sections on Bill’s website.

Nobody managed to make every ballot. Four players were named on at least 75 percent of the ballots (Biggio, Pudge, Tom Glavine and John Smoltz) and 32 players received at least one vote. Ten players earned a 1st place vote; strangely, all ten earned at least two. Gary Sheffield and Rafael Palmiero each earned a pair of 1st place votes, but no 2nd or 3rd place votes.

Six players received a single vote, among them a pair of 2nd place votes (Tim Wakefield and Matt Stairs) and a 3rd place vote (Orlando Cabrera). Garrett Anderson, Pat Burrell, J.D. Drew, Julio Franco, Derek Lee, Melvin Mora, Magglio Ordonez, Edgar Renteria, Jose Rijo, Jason Varitek and Javier Vazquez failed to receive a vote and will drop from the 2018 ballot. Lee Smith also drops from the ballot, having exhausted his eligibility.

The current glut should begin to work its way down in the next few years. There are only three locks in the next four elections plus Jim Thome, who may or may not be a lock. My guess is Glavine and Smoltz, plus two from of the Manny, Vladdie, Mussina, Schilling group get in by 2021.

Enjoy the site, and we will do this again next holiday season.

Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th # of Votes % of Ballots Points
Craig Biggio 14 12 8 4 7 3 4 1 53 96% 488
Ivan Rodriguez 15 9 6 6 4 2 5 3 1 51 93% 464
Tom Glavine 6 9 12 8 4 4 2 1 3 1 50 91% 397
John Smoltz 2 3 4 7 10 10 8 4 48 87% 296
Manny Ramirez 4 10 4 4 5 3 2 2 3 1 38 69% 292
Mike Mussina 2 4 7 7 3 6 8 5 2 5 49 89% 281
Vlad Guerrero 5 1 4 5 6 3 5 8 5 1 43 78% 254
Curt Schilling 3 3 4 7 4 6 1 3 3 3 37 67% 232
Gary Sheffield 2 1 1 5 4 3 3 4 23 42% 101
Larry Walker 2 1 3 1 3 5 5 2 22 40% 96
Rafael Palmeiro 2 1 1 1 1 2 6 14 25% 56
Kenny Lofton 1 1 2 4 1 3 6 18 33% 55
Sammy Sosa 1 2 2 1 2 2 3 13 24% 47
Jim Edmonds 1 2 2 1 2 2 3 13 24% 46
Trevor Hoffman 1 2 1 2 2 3 11 20% 33
Bernie Williams 1 1 1 1 2 1 7 13% 28
Jorge Posada 2 2 3 4 11 20% 26
Jeff Kent 4 4 2 10 18% 22
David Cone 2 3 2 7 13% 18
Billy Wagner 1 1 2 1 5 9% 18
Carlos Delgado 1 1 1 1 4 7% 15
Lee Smith 1 1 2 4% 14
Kevin Brown 1 1 1 1 4 7% 14
John Olerud 1 1 3 5 9% 12
Matt Stairs 1 1 2% 11
Tim Wakefield 1 1 2% 11
Dave Stieb 1 1 2 4 7% 8
Orlando Cabrera 1 1 2% 8
Matt Williams 1 1 2% 4
Mike Cameron 1 1 2% 4
Willie McGee 2 2 4% 2
Tony Phillips 1 1 2% 2

The 2017 introduction and ballot:

Welcome to – or back to – Bob Gregory’s Gallery of Renown. Invented by our late, great friend Bob Gregory (Rgreg1956) back in 2011, the premise is simple: “what if” the baseball Hall of Fame had begun 50 years sooner than it actually did? What if the first Hall of Fame ballot was sent out in 1885?


I’ll let Bob explain the premise himself. This is his original post:

This is the basic premise of the GOR (Gallery of Renown): Chadwick and a group of baseball powers decided to open a GOR in 1885, electing one player per year. But instead of a yes/no, in/out type of ballot like the real Hall Of Fame uses, instead, a ballot very much like the MVP vote is used. Each year, starting in 1885, voters submitted their ballots, ranking their ten most deserving of enshrinement in order. The leading vote-getter is elected.


Some specifics —

  • Bob did away with the 75 percent voting threshold for election in favor of quotas. From 1885 (the first election) through 1899 there would be one player elected each year. From 1900 forward there would be two players elected each year. Separate elections would be held for managers and for contributors every ten years: manager elections were held in years ending with zero, contributor elections held in years ending with a five.
  • Elections were modeled after the annual BBWAA (Baseball Writers’ Association of America) MVP award votes. Each ballot would consist of ten names, listed in order of preference. The points for each position on the ballot were awarded on a 14-11-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 scale. The only exceptions were the early manager and contributor ballots, which elected just one and included four names.

As most of you know, Bob Gregory passed away on September 13, 2016. I promised to continue the GOR as his proxy for as long as I can keep my happy butt above the dirt. We’ll continue to hold annual GOR elections to roughly coincide with the one in upstate New York that Buster Olney is always whining about.


A few notes:

  • The list is in alphabetical order
  • The number to the left of the player reflects the number of years he’s been on the ballot, including this year.
  • The number to the right of some players is their finish in the previous year’s GOR vote. For example, Craig Biggio finished 3rd in the 2016 vote.
  • To be clear – just in case – vote for ten players, and put them in order like it’s an MVP ballot.
  • The scoring is 14 for a 1st place vote, 11 for 2nd, then 8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
  • Ken Griffey Jr. and Frank Thomas were last year’s inductees.
  • Lee Smith is in his final year of eligibility.
  • There are 14 newcomers.
  • Two players – Nomar Garciaparra and Jason Kendall – dropped off the ballot.

2 Garret Anderson
5 Craig Biggio 3rd
7 Kevin Brown
1 Pat Burrell
1 Orlando Cabrera
1 Mike Cameron
9 David Cone
3 Carlos Delgado
1 J.D. Drew
2 Jim Edmonds 9th
5 Julio Franco
4 Tom Glavine 4th
1 Vladimir Guerrero
2 Trevor Hoffman
4 Jeff Kent
1 Derrek Lee
5 Kenny Lofton
13 Willie McGee
1 Melvin Mora
4 Mike Mussina 6th
7 John Olerud
1 Magglio Ordonez
6 Rafael Palmeiro
13 Tony Phillips
1 Jorge Posada
1 Manny Ramirez
1 Edgar Renteria
10 Jose Rijo
1 Ivan Rodriguez
5 Curt Schilling 7th
3 Gary Sheffield 9th
15 Lee Smith
3 John Smoltz 5th
5 Sammy Sosa
1 Matt Stairs
14 Dave Stieb
1 Jason Varitek
2 Billy Wagner
7 Larry Walker 8th
6 Bernie Williams 10th
9 Matt Williams
Tim Wakefield
Javier Vazquez
Dontrelle Willis
Rich Harden




It’s time once again for our yearly GOR election.

For those of you new to Reader Posts, GOR is the acronym for Gallery Of Renown. It’s an on-going mock Hall Of Fame, much like Dave Fleming’s. Or the Small Hall. Or DMBBHF’s HOF Mockup Project. We have a lot of these alternate HOFers going on all at once this time of year.

The basic premise of the GOR is “What if the Hall had opened 50 years earlier?” and with more definitive guidelines. From 1885-1899 we elected one per year; from 1900 on, we’ve elected two per year. No more and no less. We also elect managers in years ending in “0” and contributors in years ending in “5”.

The guidelines have been pretty simple. A player becomes eligible for election five years after retiring and can remain on the ballot for 15 years, just like the BBWAA. A big difference is that once the 15 years of eligibility expire, there is no VetCom to rescue them.

The voting rules are pretty simple:
1. Any BJOL subscriber is allowed to vote.
2. Unlike the BBWAA or Dave Fleming’s election, one MUST vote for ten and in order. It’s like the MVP vote. The point scale is 14-11-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1. The Top 2 in points will be enshrined into the GOR.
3. No ties allowed, make a decision.
4. There is a list of 31 candidates below, in alphabetical order. The number before the name is how many years they have been on the ballot, the number after the name is where they placed within the Top 10 in last year’s election. The names on the ballot are those who received at least one vote last year and 6 players newly eligible this year. I only saw 6 names that I think might garner a vote, but if there is someone you think I missed, you may vote for him as well.
5. There is a way to name an 11th person as a write-in. Just type in: “Write-in – Joe Blow”. There is no need to use this if someone already has him on their ballot. Anyone with a vote in 2016 automatically will be on the 2017 ballot (except the two winners, of course).
6. Feel free to ask any questions.
7. Comments and discussion is not only allowed, but desired.
8. And I repeat this every year: the purpose of the GOR is to have fun.


I always mention who dropped off from last year’s ballot. Don Mattingly used up his 15 years of eligibility, and Albert Belle, Bobby Bonilla and Bret Saberhagen dropped off after receiving no votes.

This year’s ballot:

1 Garret Anderson
4 Craig Biggio 5th
6 Kevin Brown
8 David Cone
2 Carlos Delgado
1 Jim Edmonds
4 Julio Franco
2 Nomar Garciaparra
3 Tom Glavine 4th
1 Ken Griffey
1 Trevor Hoffmann
1 Jason Kendall
3 Jeff Kent
4 Kenny Lofton
12 Willie McGee
3 Mike Mussina 6th
6 John Olerud
6 Rafael Palmeiro
12 Tony Phillips
9 Jose Rijo
4 Curt Schilling 7th
2 Gary Sheffield 9th
14 Lee Smith
2 John Smoltz 8th
4 Sammy Sosa
13 Dave Stieb
3 Frank Thomas 3rd
1 Billy Wagner
6 Larry Walker
5 Bernie Williams
8 Matt Williams

I’m also going to bring up the thread that lists all of the previous GOR electees.

I usually have to explain my ballot to new BJOL members: I don’t vote for first year eligibles, because the 1994-5 strike and PED use frustrate me. Those of us who have no power only have windmills to tilt with, and this is my only way I can think of to respond, as feeble as it may be. The thing is, my line-in-the-sand is starting to fade. Very few newcomers were active during the strike, so that issue is abating. And, as time passes, I am becoming less “offended” by pre-2005 PED use. I’m still unlikely to vote for people I think used that have HOF caliber numbers ONLY BECAUSE THEY USED (Sammy Sosa won’t be on my ballot, for example), but it’s getting harder and harder for me to be so rigid. This will likely be the last time I don’t vote for first year eligibles. And besides, I really doubt if Griffey is going to need my vote. My ballot:

1. Craig Biggio
2. Tom Glavine
3. Mike Mussina
4. Curt Schilling
5. John Smoltz
6. Frank Thomas
7. Lee Smith
8. Bernie Williams
9. Kevin Brown
10. Kenny Lofton

Terry’s ballot:

The number to the right of each player’s name is his Test score. There is no science to the Test, it’s just organized opinion, so don’t take the numbers too seriously. If I did them all over again I would be shocked if I came up with the exact same grades, though they would always be fairly close. Call it a thumb-measurement – like WAR but without the pretense that it’s exact.

1. Ken Griffey 3.2 – Junior’s closest historical comp on BBR is Frank Robinson, whose career centered in the 1960s. BBR comps aren’t adjusted for offensive context. Chew on that for a minute.

2. Frank Thomas 2.8 – there are far more qualified people to answer this question mathematically, but can Frank Thomas and Junior be used as part of a ‘control group’ – along with guys like Will Clark and maybe Fred McGriff – to demonstrate the non-PED effects of the 1990s?

3. Tom Glavine 2.3 – 300 wins, two Cy Young Awards, the only 1-0 series clinching win… no offense to Mike Mussina, who had a fine career, but if his case against Glavine was one of those rap battles Glavine would drop his mike and strut off the stage to a standing ovation, while Moose grudgingly clapped along.

4. Curt Schilling 2.2 – Like Glavine Schilling’s accomplishments are a fairly large part of his Hall of Fame legacy, with his metrics almost incidental to his case. It would be fun to make up a list of the most impressive legacies by non-Yankee players; I think Schilling would be up there pretty high.

5. John Smoltz 2.2 – I don’t rank Smoltz as high as his quick Hall of Fame election indicates. I think he might fall under the category of a ‘sexy narrative’ more than a sexy legacy, by dint of his move to the bullpen and back. For some reason this is seen by the writers as a massive sacrifice… maybe they just like him personally.

6. Craig Biggio 2.1 – He isn’t the B level candidate some compilation fans think he is, but he ain’t a D either. Electing an agent over a legitimate candidate like Bigs, if you ask me (nobody did), is akin to the redneck members of American society voting for a stuffed suit with a big mouth because smart people keep telling them not to.

7. Mike Mussina 1.7 – Bob thinks I hate Moose because I don’t love him. The truth is that I liked him fine, especially in Baltimore when he was actually good. I see no reason to credit someone for accumulating a good winning percentage with a team that was allowed to buy whomever they wanted while half the league had to let their stars go after six years.

8. Kenny Lofton 1.3 – I am in the minority on this site, but in the majority among the actual voters, when I put Lofton above Edmonds. Lofton spent his decline phase, as many do, bouncing around the league like a beach ball in the Bob. Unlike most players, though, Lofton kept landing on winners. Teams that were in contention, over and over, asked for the aging Lofton to come help them.

9. Bernie Williams 1.2 – There might be a perception that I hate Bernie, but truthfully I just don’t like him as much as some others. He and Lofton make a compelling comparison, and a fun argument. I believe both of them, along with Edmonds, will eventually make it into the Hall of Fame through one of the old timers committees.

10. Matt Williams 1.1 – I’d vote him in over Darrell Evans, but not over Graig Nettles. There is more room for personal taste between the three of ‘em than any quantifiable differences in their Hall of Fame cases.

Other Stuff:

Sammy Sosa 2.0 – Once you take the air out of his stats he’s no more than a mid C level Hall of Fame candidate, even without adjusting for the PEDs. Every context-adjusted metric, from the inks to WAR to the Hall of Fame Monitor, rates him near an average Hall of Famer. His huge homerun total was a perfect storm, the result of one of the highest run context eras, combined with the benefits of PEDs, turning Jay Bruce (his age 28 comp) into a statistical freak whose closest comp, Ken Griffey Jr., is at the top of this year’s GOR class.

I am as sick of the PED argument as everyone else, and I would just as soon never discuss it again, but in certain cases it has to be part of the discussion. The one thing I can’t advocate, even with a theoretical exercise, is ignoring historical context. Sammy Sosa was a middlin’ Hall of Famer in his own time, with the help of PEDs. In any other time, without benefit of PEDs, Sosa would have been a good player, but nowhere near a great player. Through the age of 28 Sammy had 207 career homeruns, over a thousand career hits, and a career ops+ of 107.

Rafael Palmeiro 1.3 – In 1992 Will Clark hit .300 with 16 homeruns, 73 rbi. In 1998 Rafael Palmiero hit .296 with 43 homeruns and 121 rbi. Clark’s ops+ in 1992 was 148; Palmiero’s in 1998 was 144. In 1988 Will Clark, hitting .282-.386-.508, had an ops+ of 160. In 1998 Rafael Palmiero, hitting .324-.420-.630, had an ops+ of 160.

Gary Sheffield 1.7 – For most of his career I thought of Sheffield as the new Dick Allen, and honestly I still think of him that way, but with an important distinction: Allen played in a time with inferior medical conditions, legal or illegal, and a far more charged racial climate. His alcoholism went mostly unchecked, shortening and limiting his career. Sheffield may or may not have had actual substance abuse issues – I don’t know – but he absolutely had Allen’s issues with inconsistency, durability, and temperament for a good portion of his career. It appears that he grew past those issues, something Allen never did, but is it not likely that Allen would have been taken care of better in today’s game, with rehab and therapy?

Larry Walker 1.4 – He’s going to struggle in the BBWAA voting because of Coors, and he’s a little overrated by WAR, but he has a strong case for the old timers.

Kevin Brown 1.2 – There is no way in hell that he gets a pass from me for PED use after a look at his numbers. I defy anyone to find a pitcher with a more obvious performance spike in mid-career.

Jim Edmonds 1.1 – Zero points of black ink, and only sixty points of gray ink. He’s somewhere between Bob Johnson and Wally Berger to me, where a lot of these guys really should be who have numbers that look better than they really are.

Jeff Kent 1.1 – He played forever, and all of Kent’s big years came after his thirtieth birthday. Frankly, those unusual aging patterns are as big a red flag as backne or shrunken jewels.

David Cone 1.0 – His career was broken up quite a bit, hiding how good he really was.

Carlos Delgado 1.0 – Gil Hodges-ish? I have him as a D on every question.

Nomar Garciaparra 0.9 – The poster boy for why the Hall of Fame doesn’t give out plaques in advance.

Dave Stieb 0.9 – Belongs in the Rick Reuschel, Graig Nettles class of ballplayers who nobody can remember which vowel comes first.

John Olerud 0.8 – One of my favorite players, but not a serious Hall of Fame candidate.

Trevor Hoffman 0.6 – I don’t know what to do with relievers… Hoffman never seemed Hall of Fame-y to me, and don’t think the fact that he piled up a lot of saves means much, just that he had the job for a long time. Other than Mariano, none of the single inning guys seem like Hall of Famers.

Lee Smith 0.6 – I think he’ll eventually get a plaque, but nobody thought of him as a Hall of Famer until his saves total accumulated to a big number.

Jose Rijo 0.6 – Another Reds pitcher who was done by the time he was thirty…. What would Bill DeWitt have to say about that?

Julio Franco 0.5 – Late start (he was 24 when he got his first regular job) and a bizarre move in mid-career cost him 3000 hits. It seems weird that he didn’t get there anyway, considering that he played until he was nearly fifty.

Willie McGee 0.4 – He has no chance in hell at the moment, but there were years in the GOR where he would have been a contender. The MVP, three gold gloves, two batting titles, a rookie of the year award, and several postseasons give him considerable stage value, and he finished with well over 2000 hits. It’s not impossible that he will get the call someday.

Billy Wagner 0.4 – I’ve read some smart people, here on the board, making the case that Wagner was more valuable than Hoffman or Smith. I agree to an extent, but I won’t agree that this makes him a legitimate Hall of Fame candidate. Wagner’s big game history was terrible, reducing his impact on the game substantially.

In other words, Wagner had more value on the field than what I might term “on the stage” – or stage value. How’s that for a term? The highest WAR is the most value on the field, or field value. The highest impact on the game itself – its history, lore, records, memories, etc. – can be called the stage value.

Tony Phillips 0.3 – Was Phillips the Ben Zobrist of his generation, or is Zorilla the Tony Phillips of this one?

Jason Kendall 0.2 – No other position has this sort of thing happen, does it? Some catchers are good offensive players with bad defensive reputations when they are young, then develop a better defensive reputation, lose the offense, and spend several years as a catch and throw guy with a good defensive reputation. Dave Valle was one, Kendall another. Alan Ashby was the opposite, a defense-first catcher who developed into a good offensive player with a poor defensive reputation. Sometimes I wonder if some writers judge catcher defense based on their offensive ability, sort of as a self-regulating thing. The better the offense, the worse the assumed defense, and vice versa.

Garret Anderson 0.1 – in 2000-2001, Anderson hit 63 homers and drove in 240 runs with an ops+ of 104. In 2000 he hit 35 homers, drove in 117 runs, and was a below average player.


Happy New Year to one and all. Here are the rather unexciting results for the 2016 GOR.

Even with me not voting for him and MarisFan having him 8th, Griffey took the lead by the fourth ballot. It took Thomas until the 6th ballot to secure the #2 spot. But 14 consecutive ballots had those two in the Top 2 spots to make it a runaway. In all, 25 voters made out ballots. The number after the name is where they placed in the 2015 election.

305 Junior Griffey
228 Frank Thomas 3rd
173 Craig Biggio 5th
171 Tom Glavine 4th
133 John Smoltz 8th
118 Mike Mussina 6th
109 Curt Schilling 7th
35 Larry Walker
31 Jim Edmonds
31 Bernie Williams
23 Trevor Hoffman
22 Gary Sheffield 9th
20 Kenny Lofton
19 Lee Smith
14 Willie McGee
13 Jeff Kent
12 Kevin Brown
12 Carlos Delgado
11 Rafael Palmeiro
9 Tony Phillips
9 Dave Stieb
7 David Cone
7 Matt Williams
5 Sammy Sosa
4 Julio Franco
3 Billy Wagner
1 Jose Rijo
0* Garret Anderson
0* John Olerud
0 Nomar Garciaparra
0 Jason Kendall
The only ones to drop off next year’s ballot are Garciaparra and Kendall, Anderson and Olerud got Honorable Mention support.

Next year looks like it’s Biggio and Glavine as the presumptive hold-over favorites, but I’m sure there will be Vlady, IRod and Manny B. Manny fans to make it interesting.

There’s a pretty big dropoff between #7 Schilling and #8 Walker. I’d guess that this year’s #3 thru #7 will eventually make the GOR, but Walker and below likely won’t.



With Dave posting his yearly HOF alternative, it’s time to post mine. I would have preferred using “our” and “ours” instead of “his” and “mine”, but that would have been confusing.

For those new to the concept, I’m going to bring a few threads to the forefront. One will list all the previous winners; some will explain how it began. But for a quick refresher course……

Suppose the HOF had started 50 years earlier and with clearer guidelines. This is the basic premise of the Gallery Of Renown, or GOR for short. Like the BBWAA, players are eligible 5 years after retiring and are eligible to stay on the ballot 15 times if they continue to receive votes. But unlike the real Hall, there is no VetCom committee to muddy things up. A player has 15 years AND THAT’S IT to be elected.

From 1885 to 1899, one player per year was elected. Starting with 1900, the Top 2 vote-getters each year are enshrined in the GOR. By only electing two per year, each generation is considered equal to the others. There have been times when the list of candidates have been overwhelming; there have been times when the list has been underwhelming. Right now, we are in an overwhelming phase.

The voting rules are pretty simple.
1. Any BJOL subscriber is eligible to vote. You don’t have to have voted before. Newcomers are more than welcomed.
2. Unlike the BBWAA and Dave’s election, the GOR is more like an MVP vote. You MUST vote for TEN IN ORDER. No ties allowed; make a decision. Scoring the ballots is a 14-11-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 point system. The Top 2 point leaders are elected to the GOR.
3. There is a ballot (listed below) to pick and choose from. The names on the ballot are players who received votes in the 2014 election, plus the top 10 (IMO) new-to-the-ballot candidates. If there is a newcomer that I left off that you want to vote for, go ahead; that’s perfectly okay. Just remember that theGOR ballot is different from both the real ballot and Dave’s, as we have different rules for who is and who is not eligible.
4. There is a way to have a write-in vote if you so desire. After your 10-man ballot, you can list players who you’d like to see stick around for the 2016 GOR ballot. If you see that someone has already voted for them, there is no need to add their name, as getting even one vote will ensure that they’ll make next year’s cut.
5. If any one has questions, please feel free to ask.
6. Comments and discussions are not only acceptable, they are desired.
7. Over the weekend, I’ll be posting another thread titled “2015 GOR – Contributors”. In years ending in a 5, we also elect 2 contributors; in years ending in a 0, we elect 2 managers.
8. This is the most important rule: HAVE FUN!!!!

The 2015 ballot.
Below are the 35 men who are on this year’s ballot. The number before the name is how many years they have been on the ballot. If there is a number behind the name, it is where they placed in the 2014 GORelection.

I’ve always listed who dropped off the ballot, so I will do so again. Kent Hrbek, Jack Morris and Dale Murphy used up their 15 years without getting elected. A number of long-time candidates also dropped off from lack of support (ie. no one voted for them): Brett Butler, Eric Davis, Chuck and Steve Finley, Andres Gallarage, Juan Gonzalez, Dwight Gooden, Jimmy Key, Reggie Sanders and David Wells. Fine players all, just not Gooden nuff. (Sorry for the bad pun!)

10 Albert Belle
3 Craig Biggio 4th
10 Bobby Bonilla
5 Kevin Brown
7 David Cone
1 Carlos Delgado
1 Darin Erstad
3 Julio Franco
1 Nomar Garciaparra
1 Brian Giles
2 Tom Glavine 5th
1 Tom Gordon
1 Randy Johnson
2 Jeff Kent
3 Kenny Lofton
1 Pedro Martinez
15 Don Mattingly
11 Willie McGee
2 Mike Mussina 7th
5 John Olerud
5 Rafael Palmeiro 10th
1 Troy Percival
11 Tony Phillips
8 Jose Rijo
9 Bret Saberhagen
3 Curt Schilling 6th
1 Gary Sheffield
13 Lee Smith
1 John Smoltz
3 Sammy Sosa 8th
12 Dave Stieb
2 Frank Thomas 3rd
5 Larry Walker
4 Bernie Williams
7 Matt Williams

So remember: your ballot must have ten, in order….and have fun.

Bob’s ballot:

1. Craig Biggio
2. Tom Glavine
3. Frank Thomas
4. Mike Mussina
5. Curt Schilling
6. Lee Smith
7. Sammy Sosa
8. Bernie Williams
9. Kevin Brown
10. Kenny Lofton

Three names missing, Johnson, Martinez and Smoltz. As I’ve explained elsewhere, I don’t vote for first time eligibles. It’s the only way I have to show my displeasure with the ’94-5 strike and the PED Era. If none get elected (altho I’m guessing that Johnson and Martinez will win this year), they’ll be on my list next year, just as Glavine, Thomas and Mussina made my ballot this year, after my ignoring them in 2014.

Terry’s ballot:

Randy Johnson – Good argument for best ever, great argument for best lefty ever, but career length has to be considered suspect in a period when everyone played forever and kept a druggist on the payroll.
Pedro Martinez – On the short list of funnest players ever, both on the mound and in front of the press.
Tom Glavine – Overrated by old farts, underrated by stat farts because his level of accomplishment outkicked the coverage of his theoretical value. The truth, as it so often does, lands somewhere in the boring, no fun to talk about middle.
John Smoltz – Theoretically lands ahead of Glavine, and I certainly won’t argue with anyone who swaps them.
Curt Schilling – His giant head makes me scratch mine, wondering if I have him ranked about thirty spots too high. His performance spike ranks with Brown’s, but he at least demonstrated that he was capable of pitching at that level before the spike.
Frank Thomas – I could rank him a lot higher, but (1) era, (2) no defense, (3) no real team accomplishments, (4) he annoys me with his self-righteous indignation about PEDs.
Craig Biggio – Wildly overrated, in my opinion, because of the durability/era/Bill’s stamp of approval combination, but it takes a draconian context adjustment to get a 3000 hit second baseman out of the Hall of Fame. He deserves to be in, as a solid C level candidate.
Mike Mussina – Bob likes him way more than I do. He was underrated in Baltimore, than maybe a wee bit overrated in New York, and he had the dreaded performance spike plus remarkable durability. Does he get a pass because he went to Stanford? I dunno.
Don Mattingly – His skill set fit right in with the Al Oliver/Raffy Palmiero group – and I believe a case can be made that Mattingly was better than either of them. Oliver never had Mattingly’s peak power or defensive reputation, and Palmiero’s power and durability were artificially enhanced.
Kenny Lofton – he doesn’t really deserve to rank ahead of some of the guys down the list, but I rank him tenth every year because he kept landing on winners. He played college basketball before moving to baseball and as a result began his career several years late. Had he gotten going earlier, he could have put up some funhouse numbers and been (maybe?) comparable to Tim Raines.

Other Stuff:

Albert Belle – Hack Wilson/Chuck Klein type; like those guys his batting averages were artificially inflated. In a normal world he would not have been a .300 hitter.
Kevin Brown – Do you trust his performance spike? He went from Randy Jones to Randy Johnson.
David Cone – The old peak value measures would be good to him. Gooden, Saberhagen, Cone, who else? Some of these guys would have had peak/career value differences of well over a hundred spots.
Carlos Delgado – He is hard to figure – his run context is so high – but I think he might have actually stood out more in a normal environment. He only had the one year with a ridiculous batting average, and his power was legitimate. He might have been a poor man’s Harmon Killebrew at least, a poor man’s Willie McCovey at best. It doesn’t matter, though, because (1) he did have the one suspicious year and (2) he doesn’t stand out in his own era.
Julio Franco – Who had the cooler swing? Julio, or Sheffield? Ten years younger, he might have been the batting average king of the PED era and possibly threatened .400.
Nomar Garciaparra – He did threaten .400, but (1) his career was short, (2) mediocre defense means he doesn’t deserve the credit WAR gives shortstops for the glove they wear, and (3) who wants to spend seven years engraving that name on a plaque anyway?
Jeff Kent – IMHO he wasn’t anywhere near a Hall of Fame level player – at least a BBWAA level Hall of Fame player – but the era inflated his stats so much that he sort of kind of looks like one in bad lighting from a distance, so people like to talk about him. Long careers are part of the artificial advantage PEDs gave these guys. Without the ridiculous durability, who was Kent? Rico Petrocelli? He was better than that, but how much better?
Rafael Palmeiro – See Kent, Jeff. A huge part of the PED advantage was that these guys hardly ever got hurt, old, or tired. Raffy was about ten feet over the fence strong, but he was able to maintain that ten feet for nearly two decades. In a normal world he wasn’t as good as Will Clark, and probably no better than Al Oliver.
Gary Sheffield – Sheff 1991, Sheff 1992. See soul, sold: examples from people who hate Milwaukee. Next question.
Larry Walker – Middle of the PED era, in Coors field. The context adjustment Walker needs is up there with early 1930’s Chuck Klein. Even without adjustments he is no more than a decent Vets’ Committee candidate.
Matt Williams – Harmon Killebrew to Mike Zunino – Williams is the one in the middle. Whitest guys to ever play baseball well. Ok, not quite – Zunino needs to pick it up a little.


18 ballots; the results:

226 Randy Johnson
188 Pedro Martinez
126 Frank Thomas
108 Tom Glavine
104 Craig Biggio
66 Mike Mussina
66 Curt Schilling
55 John Smoltz
24 Gary Sheffield
22 Don Mattingly
15 Kevin Brown
14 Sammy Sosa
14 Larry Walker
14 Bernie Williams
13 Kenny Lofton
12 Lee Smith
8 Rafael Palmeiro
7 Tony Phillips
7 Dave Stieb
5 Jeff Kent
2 Matt Williams
1 Julio Franco
1 Jose Rijo

Guys with no votes, but who received an Honorable Mention (and will stay on the 2016 ballot): David Cone, Carlos Delgado, Nomar Garciaparra, Willie McGee and John Olerud.

Dropping off are Belle, Bonilla, Erstad, Giles, Gordon, Percival and Saberhagen.

Five players received a 1st or 2nd place vote. Johnson had 13 1sts and 4 2nds; Martinez had 3 1sts and 13 2nds; Mattingly had 1 1st; and some idiot had Biggio 1st and Glavine 2nd.

Doesn’t it seem kind of fitting that Mussina, Schilling and Smoltz are bunched up together? And that appears to be the line to cross for eventual election to the GOR.

For MeanDean, I’m bring the list of previous winners to the front.


I was going to wait until December 1st, but what the heck…if Dave Fleming can start his now, I guess I can start this election now too. I’ll keep this election open until midnight, December 31st, so you can take your time, if you wish. I’m calling this, affectionately, the “JimmyG Rule”!!!

For those new to the GOR process, the voting is similar to a MVP ballot. You have to name ten and in order. No ties allowed. The points scored for each ballot is 14-11-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1, and the Top Two points recipients will be elected to the GOR. There are no write-ins allowed but you can, in effect, vote for more than ten by having Honorable Mentions. There is no need to mention someone Honorably if someone else has already voted for him. The purpose of a Honorable Mention is to make sure that they remain on the 2015 ballot, and anyone receiving a vote will be on the 2015 ballot, unless they’ve used up their 15 years of eligibility.

This year’s ballot is both lengthy and loaded with worthy candidates. Again for those who are new, the number before the name is how many years they’ve been on the ballot and the number after the name is where they placed in the 2013 GOR election. Fifty-three names to sort thru.

1 Moises Alou
9 Albert Belle
1 Armando Benitez
2 Craig Biggio 4th
9 Bobby Bonilla
4 Kevin Brown 10th
12 Brett Butler
1 Sean Casey
6 David Cone
8 Eric Davis
1 Ray Durham
2 Chuck Finley
2 Steve Finley
2 Julio Franco
1 Eric Gagne
5 Andres Gallaraga
1 Tom Glavine
3 Juan Gonzalez
1 Luis Gonzalez
9 Dwight Gooden
1 Jacque Jones
1 Todd Jones
15 Kent Hrbek
1 Jeff Kent
11 Jimmy Key
1 Paul Lo Duca
2 Kenny Lofton 10th
1 Greg Maddux
14 Don Mattingly
10 Willie McGee
15 Jack Morris
15 Dale Murphy
1 Mike Mussina
1 Hideo Nomo
4 John Olerud
4 Rafael Palmeiro 7th
10 Tony Phillips
2 Mike Piazza 3rd
7 Jose Rijo
1 Kenny Rogers
8 Bret Saberhagen
2 Reggie Sanders
2 Curt Schilling 5th
1 Richie Sexson
12 Lee Smith
1 J. T. Snow
2 Sammy Sosa 8th
11 Dave Stieb
1 Frank Thomas
1 Mike Tomlin
4 Larry Walker 6th
2 David Wells
3 Bernie Williams 9th
6 Matt Williams

Be aware that there are multiple last names with more than one candidate, so don’t write just “Williams” or “Gonzalez” or “Finley” or “Jones” and expect me to know which one you meant.

For the new folks, I’m going to bring up a couple of old threads that explain the purpose of the GOR and one that lists all the previous winners. These should answer any questions you may have, but if not, please feel free to ask any not covered.

Bob’s ballot:

1. Piazza
2. Biggio
3. Sosa
4. Schilling
5. Morris
6. B Williams
7. Brown
8. Walker
9. Cone
10. Smith

Honorable Mention: It’s too crowded for any Honorable Mention to ever get in.

Edit: I probably should explain why I didn’t vote for Maddux. I don’t vote for any first year guys. It’s my only way of protesting the Steroid Era. All players either took them or hid their heads in the sand. It’s just a one year moratorium. I didn’t vote for Biggio or Piazza last year; they now top my ballot. And just so you know, it’s not easy; Maddux is one of my all-time favorites.

Terry’s ballot:

1. Greg Maddux
2. Mike Piazza
3. Tom Glavine
4. Craig Biggio
5. Frank Thomas
6. Curt Schilling
7. Mike Mussina
8. Dale Murphy
9. Don Mattingly
10. Jack Morris

Honorable Mention:
Kenny Lofton
Julio Franco

I think Mussina is the BBWAA level gap player – Schilling is a clear BBWAA type in the Drysdale/Catfish mold, Mussina is borderline in the Blyleven but also Kaat/John mold, and Murphy is clearly headed for the pile of VC candidates in a few years.

Are all VC candidates, by definition, borderline Hall of Fame candidates? I think Murphy is a similar candidate ‘type’ to Chuck Klein (in my opinion his best comp) and the raft of similar guys; guys like Hack Wilson and Wally Berger, Roy Johnson, Gavy Cravvath, and so on. Some are in, some are still waiting. The ones who are waiting are popular candidates, and the ones who are in are unpopular inductees. I’m not sure I could define borderline better than that.


Results from 17 ballots….

224 Greg Maddux
151 Mike Piazza
121 Frank Thomas
116 Craig Biggio
90 Tom Glavine
69 Curt Schilling
67 Mike Mussina
36 Sammy Sosa
20 Jack Morris
19 Rafael Palmeiro
18 Bernie Williams
17 Kevin Brown
15 Kenny Lofton
14 Jeff Kent
12 Dale Murphy
12 Larry Walker
9 Tony Phillips
7 Willie McGee
6 Lee Smith
3 David Cone
3 Don Mattingly
3 Dave Stieb
2 John Olerud
2 Jose Rijo
1 Bobby Bonilla


With just a tinge of melancholy: this is the final official GOR election. I’m going to make one small little change…..mine will be the final vote. I usually vote first; but out of sentimentality, I’m going to vote last (not that my ballot will effect the outcome one little bit).

The only player of significance to drop out is Willie Randolph.

This election will end Saturday.

1 Sandy Alomar
8 Albert Belle
1 Craig Biggio
1 Barry Bonds
3 Kevin Brown 7th
7 Jay Buhner
11 Brett Butler
1 Jeff Cirillo
1 Roger Clemens
5 David Cone
1 Jeff Conine
7 Eric Davis
6 Chuck Finley
1 Steve Finley
1 Julio Franco
4 Andres Gallaraga
2 Juan Gonzalez
8 Dwight Gooden
1 Shawn Green
1 Roberto Hernandez
14 Kent Hrbek
10 Jimmy Key
1 Ryan Klesko
1 Kenny Lofton
2 Javy Lopez
13 Don Mattingly 8th
9 Willie McGee
1 Jose Mesa
14 Jack Morris 9th
14 Dale Murphy
6 Robb Nen
3 John Olerud
3 Rafael Palmeiro 3rd
9 Tony Phillips
1 Mike Piazza
6 Jose Rijo
7 Bret Saberhagen
2 Tim Salmon
1 Reggie Sanders
1 Curt Schilling
1 Aaron Sele
11 Lee Smith 10th
1 Sammy Sosa
1 Mike Stanton
10 Dave Stieb
3 Larry Walker 4th
1 David Wells
1 Rondell White
2 Bernie Williams 6th
5 Matt Williams
1 Woody Williams

And be aware that there are two Finleys and three Williams’ on the ballot.

Bob’s ballot:

1. Walker
2. B Williams
3. Murphy
4. Mattingly
5. Brown
6. Morris
7. Cone
8. Galarraga
9. Belle
10. Gonzalez

Terry’s ballot:

1: Barry Bonds
2: Roger Clemens
3: Mike Piazza
4: Craig Biggio
5: Curt Schilling
6: Sammy Sosa
7: Dale Murphy
8: Jack Morris
9: Raffy Palmiero
10: Don Mattingly

Julio Franco
Kenny Lofton


15 ballots; the results:

157 Barry Bonds
148 Roger Clemens
120 Mike Piazza
98 Craig Biggio
72 Curt Schilling
50 Larry Walker
48 Rafael Palmeiro
37 Sammy Sosa
30 Bernie Williams
23 Kevin Brown
23 Kenny Lofton
21 Dale Murphy
15 Don Mattingly
14 Jack Morris
8 David Cone
8 Tony Phillips
7 Bret Saberhagen
6 John Olerud
6 Dave Stieb
5 Lee Smith
3 Albert Belle
3 Bret Butler
3 Andres Galarraga
2 Chuck Finley
2 Julio Franco
2 Matt Williams
1 Bobby Bonilla
1 Eric Davis
1 Juan Gonzalez
1 Jose Rijo



Three long time guys drop off: Dwight Evans, Dave Parker and Rick Reuschel. Hershiser and Parrish drop from lack of support.



7 Albert Belle

2 Kevin Brown 9th

6 Jay Buhner
1 Jeromy Burnitz
10 Brett Butler
1 Vinny Castilla
4 David Cone
6 Eric Davis
11 Andre Dawson 7th
5 Chuck Finley
3 Andres Gallaraga
7 Dwight Gooden
2 Marquis Grissom
1 Brian Jordan
1 Javy Lopez
12 Don Mattingly 10th
8 Willie McGee

3 Fred McGriff 3rd
13 Jack Morris
1 Bill Mueller
13 Dale Murphy
5 Rob Nen
2 John Olerud
2 Rafael Palmeiro 6th
8 Tony Phillips
1 Brad Radke
15 Willie Randolph 8th
5 Jose Rijo
6 Bret Saberhagen
1 Tim Salmon
2 Benito Santiago
1 Ruben Sierra
10 Lee Smith
9 Dave Stieb
2 Larry Walker 5th
1 Bernie Williams
4 Matt Williams
1 Eric Young

Bob’s ballot:

1. Dawson
2. McGriff
3. Morris
4. Smith
5. Randolph
6. Murphy
7. Mattingly
8. Walker
9. Bernie Williams
10. Butler


Terry’s ballot:

Bernie Williams


14 ballots; the results:

97 Fred McGriff
90 Andre Dawson
89 Rafael Palmeiro
75 Larry Walker
74 Willie Randolph
55 Bernie Williams
51 Kevin Brown
46 Don Mattingly
40 Jack Morris
37 Lee Smith
36 Dale Murphy
28 John Olerud
22 BretSaberhagen
19 Tony Phillips
15 Albert Belle
14 Brett Butler
13 David Cone
12 Dave Steib
11 Willie McGee
9 Eric Davis
6 Chuck Finley
6 Dwight Gooden
5 Matt Williams
2 Jimmy Key
1 Kent Hrbek
1 Javy Lopez


This election will end Sunday. Only three players dropped out, Dan Quisenberry, Jose Canseco and Harold Baines.

2 Kevin Appier
1 Carlos Baerga
1 Jeff Bagwell
6 Albert Belle
1 Bret Boone
1 Kevin Brown
5 Jay Buhner
9 Brett Butler
3 David Cone
5 Eric Davis
10 Andre Dawson 5th
15 Dwight Evans 7th
4 Chuck Finley
1 John Franco
2 Andres Gallaraga
1 Juan Gonzalez
6 Dwight Gooden
1 Marquis Grissom
6 Orel Hershiser
1 Charles Johnson
1 Al Leiter
2 Edgar Martinez 3rd
1 Tino Martinez
11 Don Mattingly 9th
7 Willie McGee
2 Fred McGriff 4th
1 Raul Mondesi
12 Jack Morris
12 Dale Murphy
4 Rob Nen
1 John Olerud
1 Rafael Palmeiro
15 Dave Parker
11 Lance Parrish
7 Tony Phillips
14 Willie Randolph 6th
15 Rick Reuschel 8th
4 Jose Rijo
5 Bret Saberhagen 10th
1 Benito Santiago
9 Lee Smith
2 Lonnie Smith
8 Dave Stieb
1 BJ Surhoff
2 Robin Ventura
1 Larry Walker
3 Matt Williams

Bob’s ballot:

1. Bagwell
2. McGriff
3. Edgar
4. Dawson
5. Evans
6. Morris
7. Smith
8. Walker
9. Randolph
10. Murphy

Terry’s ballot:

1: Jeff Bagwell
2: Andre Dawson
3: Fred McGriff
4: Dale Murphy
5: Jack Morris
6: Raffy Palmiero
7: Edgar Martinez
8: Dwight Evans
9: Don Mattingly
10: Willie Randolph

John Olerud
Larry Walker


14 ballots; the results:

190 Jeff Bagwell
114 Edgar Martinez
71 Fred McGriff
65 Dwight Evans
59 Larry Walker
54 Rafael Palmeiro
49 Andre Dawson
36 Willie Randolph
30 Kevin Brown
25 Don Mattingly
24 Bret Saberhagen
22 Dale Murphy
22 Rick Reuschel
15 John Olerud
15 Lee Smith
14 Jack Morris
10 Dave Parker
7 Albert Belle
6 David Cone
6 Willie McGee
5 Tony Phillips
4 Brett Butler
3 Dwight Gooden
3 Dave Stieb
2 Eric Davis
2 Chuck Finley
1 Matt Williams